Enhanced Germination Techniques

<Mgullo> Thanks for the pigment lesson Sharon
<Mgullo> and the enhanced Germination as well

<SharonMcA> hope it's helped a little.  probably shouldn't admit I have
more questions now than I did 25 years ago <G>
<SharonMcA> the deeper I've dug the more details I've found to explore.

<Mgullo> I don't think genetics will ever be cut and dry
<Mgullo> germination either

<danab> Sharon as long as you have questions you are learning, or so I
have been told

<SharonMcA> germination depends a lot on climate.
<SharonMcA> I rely on the enhanced techniques because I've had such
dismal luck with the natural route.  Doesn't mean I think that's best
for everyone.

<Mgullo> variability in water amounts and timing
<danab> I think that a lot of this should be grouped and published

<SharonMcA> and temperature.
<SharonMcA> Gus' garden was only five miles from mine, but across the
river & down in the valley.

<Mgullo> Sharon I normally just put my seeds out for the winter in pots, but the germination can be all over the place

<Patrick> that makes a difference all right

<SharonMcA> cool pocket, with adobe loam instead of my SAND
<SharonMcA> he had pretty good natural germination, but even better if
we put seeds through the cold stratification then planted in late
winter.

<Patrick> Sharon, Have you transported any of it to your property.
Sandy Loam is great for irises.

<Mgullo> Plus last year I bought a bunch from SIGNA that came in Feb. if
I recall correctly
<Mgullo> didn't want to just stick them out in our cold winters

<danab> my seeds seem to need extra chilling

<SharonMcA> mostly took sand to the valley, by planting entire rootballs
when we moved seedlings.

<Mgullo> so I stratified them with good results

<SharonMcA> Gus often joked about what archaeologists would think of the
place in hundreds of years.

<Patrick> Sharon, that is funny

<danab> with the little pockets of sand scattered here and there?

<Elsie> Odd strata huh, Sharon a real puzzler

<SharonMcA> and sometimes little square peat pots.

<Mgullo> Dana what growth medium do you use for stratifying?

<SharonMcA> one pot per seedling, rim torn off so it wouldn't act as a
wick when planted.

<danab> I use a seed starting mix

<Elsie> any particular brand?

<danab> ahh, shucks I can't remeber

<Mgullo> tried some different brands with varying results

<SharonMcA> I just use perlite for stratification, or Deno's
baggy/papertowel trick.

<Elsie> perlite is sure a sterile envioroment

<Mgullo> Been meaning to get the Deno book

<SharonMcA> then transfer to a mixture of native sand & potting soil as
soon as the leaf breaks out.

<danab> for the fridge time I use paper towels, then move to the seed
starting mix and pots outside

<SharonMcA> perlite has given me the least problems with damp-off

<Elsie> in a plastic bag Dana?

<Patrick> Is there something to be said to an iris seedling that is NOT
effected by damp-off

<SharonMcA> The baggies save space but it's harder to keep the towels
optimumlly moist.

<Elsie> do you use a mister to spray them Dana?

<SharonMcA> Prize crosses always go into perlite in plastic freezer
dishes

<danab> a spray bottle Elsie

<Mgullo> I used pro mix this year and it stayed moist

<Elsie> That is what I meant

<Mgullo> no dampening off either

<Elsie> do you use a bleach bath before going in the fridge?

<danab> Scott's is the brand of potting soil I think

<RogerD> Rick uses SuperSoil

<Mgullo> I didn't

<danab> the water saving one or the fertilized one?

<Elsie> I read somewhere to do the bleach bath and soak the seeds

<SharonMcA> used to presoak in a dilute Clorox solution, but found it
didn't make any difference with perlite or paper towels like it with
with direct planting.

<Mgullo> I was worried about using a peat based mix with my bearded
seeds

<Elsie> Too acid Mike?

<Mgullo> that's my concern

<SharonMcA> definitely soak the seeds, though.  The good ones will plump
up and sink while the chaff floats.

<danab> we are so akaline here it might help <G>

<Mgullo> most of my SIGNA seed was beardless

<danab> how long do you  soak Sharon?

<Mgullo> did germinate 3 out of 4 pumila though

<Gerry> Should there be a comma there, Dana?

<SharonMcA> depends on how dry the seeds are.  relatively fresh ones may
be ready overnight.

<danab>  LOL
<danab> yes
<danab> so soak, then stratify in the fridge then plant out

<SharonMcA> I change the water 2 or 3 times a day, soaking until the
seeds have sorted themselves out.

<Mgullo> heard some soak for 2 weeks

<SharonMcA> yes
<SharonMcA> planting in late winter, though, so they don't think spring
is here when they go from frig to ground

<Elsie> how long in the fridge Sharon?

<danab> good thought Sharon, around here they could get really confused

<RogerD> we don't like ours to germinate until Spring either

<Mgullo>  I startified in Feb. for 2 months and then put my seeds into
pot and put out in April

<danab> I would love to set mine up so they germinated early and I
wintered them in the greenhouse

<Mgullo> be nice to get a head start Dana

<Patrick> Mike, I have to have my seedlings in the GROUND by April, or
the heat of summer frys them

<danab> that's my thinking Mike

<Mgullo> we have to watch for snow and hard freezes still in April

<SharonMcA> If you read some of the OLD bulletins, you'll find
references to fall-germinating southerners and spring-germinating
northerners.
<SharonMcA> I think spring-germination is best for most of the country
so I try to select for that by tricking them into germinating by spring
conditions when the calendar says fall.  That way they can winter under
lights and be ready to line out when established clumps break dormancy.

<Mgullo> I'm Am anxious to get my seeds going now , but I don't have the
room indoors for so many

<SharonMcA> Here, optimal planting seems to be between Lincoln's and
Washington's birthdays.

<Elsie> Sharon do you have a big greenhouse?

<SharonMcA> No, the greenhouse was the victim of a freak snowstorm that
sent a tree limb crashing through the top.

<danab> how long ago Sharon? (for those articles?

<Elsie> ouch, Sharon sorry about that

<SharonMcA> I use growlites.

<Elsie> I have 3 on my wall, each 4 foot long

<SharonMcA> mid-80s

<danab> I will look and see if I can find them, thanks

<Elsie> used them for my potted iris to get them going

<SharonMcA>  I've written so many articles for so
many iris pubs over the years that the information is undoubtedly out
there somewhere <G>

<Mgullo> I met Bob Bauer and John Coble from Ensata Gardens a few months
back and they grow theirs under lights too

<Mgullo> 1600 on a 4 x 8 sheet a plywood under lights

<Patrick> Sharon, do you have the growlights on when you are germinating
the seeds, or do you allow them to germ in darkness?

<danab> Vernon made a set of  light stands for veggies, guess I could
use those

<SharonMcA> the flats go from frig to grolite, cool room, timer for 18
hours a day


<SharonMcA> they grow too lanky without lights

<danab> hey I can buy veggies

<Elsie> I had my lights touching the tops of the iris and they did real
good

<RogerD> but your own veggies taste so good Dana, but they cost so much
to grow :-)

<Mgullo> worry about dampening off indoors

<RogerD> but it's the principle of the thing--so says Rick

<Mgullo> really have to watch the water

Pest Control

<Elsie> I had a big problem with aphids this year

<Mgullo> and ciculation

<Patrick> it is theraputic too Roger

<danab> I used to love to grow the veggies but they are such a hassle
now <G>

<RogerD> I'be heard that one from him too Patrick

<Mgullo> in doors or outdoors Elsie?

<Elsie> indoors

<danab> I used the diazinon and it knocked them right out

<Elsie> been squashing the rascals for weeks now

<SharonMcA> have never had a problem with aphids on seedlings under
lights, unless mixed with late-arriving mature rhizomes.

<Mgullo> I have some trouble with them as well indoors

<Patrick> There is something to be said about it Roger, esp. if you grow
heirloom veggies and save your seeds

<SharonMcA> seems the eggs can survive on the cleanest looking rhizomes.

<Elsie> I got these from some local club sale iris

<RogerD> he liked some of your tomatos Patrick

<Patrick> that great!

<danab> I  worked and worked to clean these up but thought I had better
smack them down before they infested the entire greenhouse

<Patrick> and you got sick of the cucumbers no doubt

<danab> it seems to have taken care of my mealybugs too

<RogerD> I only ate a few, he ate most of them

<Mgullo> often have a mix of new seedlings and some mature rhizomes that
I carry over through the winter

<Patrick> has anyone used sytemic pesticide on irises for aphids?

<Elsie> I have some of those on my violets under the lights too DAna

<Mgullo> hence some aphids

<Elsie> I hope they will freeze out this winter in the garden

<danab> not me Patrick but it sounds good

<SharonMcA> yes, but can't recall the name of it.  sounds something like
disyston...

<danab> I used something that sounds like that on the roses this year

<SharonMcA> out in the garden, the ladybugs take care of the problem

<judy> disiston

<Patrick> Would ORTHO Rose Food and Systemic Pesticide granuals work on
iris?  The nitrogen is not too high

<danab> I wish, my aphids beat up my ladybugs

<Elsie> Mean aphids Dana

<jb> I have had good luck with ddt

<Gerry> Ortho works very well with irises


<SharonMcA> if the pests have the upper hand, you may have to release
ladybugs often enough to get a colony established.

<danab> Sharon, I see lady bugs everywhere

<SharonMcA> the first year, I spent about the same amount on ladybugs I
used to spend on chemicals.
<SharonMcA> haven't had to import any more for years now.

<Elsie> WE had a lot of ladybugs this last spring so maybe I will get
lucky

<danab> when I clean the clumps I find colonies of them but I still have
aphids and it has been about 4 years of no spraying

<SharonMcA> there will always be some aphids, else the ladybugs would
leave.

<danab> true, and I don't mind a few but I hate it when the iris wiggle
<G>

<Elsie> we have a wide variety of bug life here for them to eat

<SharonMcA> but they seem to keep them under control.  And it's the
larvae that eat the aphids, not the mature bugs, so you do have to learn
not to squish them

<RogerD> the Sierra foothills are where most of the ladybugs in the
country come from, we have tons in the garden every year, they attack!

<Elsie> I hate the sticky feel of the leaves

<danab> I've been bitten by them Roger

<Elsie> Roger fending off killer ladybugs, what a picture

<Patrick> Mature lady bugs do eat aphids, however, the larve lady bugs
eat much more

<RogerD> when we clear the weeds they attack elsie!

<jb> Mike and I have very few insects....we split a 55 gallon drum of
Cygon every year

<Elsie> Far out Roger

<MikeOH> I have never seen aphids on my iris maybe the borers eat them

<RogerD> Praying mantis attack too

<SharonMcA> the mature ladybugs seem to go more for eggs than aphids.

<danab> they get way down in the fans on mine

<Elsie> Mike I would rather have the aphids

<danab> me too Elsie

<SharonMcA> have often seen larvae going after aphids, but not the
adults.

<Patrick> Lizards do a good job on the bugs in my garden

<MikeOH> I never saw a borer this year and JB used the whole 55 gal
cygone

<RogerD> Patrick has Gila Monsters!

<Patrick> I was reading up about it Sharon

<Elsie> Here lizard, lizard

<SharonMcA> You definitely don't want to be in the garden when the
ladybugs & elm beetles are at war!

<danab> for his lizard

<SharonMcA> I was trying to get photos of ladybugs at various stages of
development & at work for an article on establishing the colony

<danab> that would be really cool Sharon

<SharonMcA> got a good shot of a fresh egg cluster, with the ladybug in
the frame for scale.

<SharonMcA> got some pretty good ones of the larvae.

<danab> so what is missing?

<SharonMcA> pupae just sit there, so it was mostly a matter of getting a
good closeup with side lighting so it would show up.

<Mgullo> I use Murphy's Oil Soap with good results

<Elsie> I put some diaznon on my violets but still have the mealy bugs

<SharonMcA> mature ladybugs going after a meal!
<SharonMcA> they seem to rustle under the mulch for eggs.

<danab> where do I get this stuff, I need 4 arms for weeding

<SharonMcA> have you had small oval holes mysteriously appear in an iris
leaf?

<Patrick> They sound very active in your garden Sharon.  I got some once
for my garden and before they could fly away all the lizards appeared
and ate them up...oops

<SharonMcA> clean, neatly healed wound

<danab> I like Surflan, but its a funny thinng, you got to get it down
for it to work

<Gerry> Caterpillers?

<Elsie> Will the violets forgive my for spraying them?

<danab> what choice do you have?

<RogerD> get Vern to do that Dana

<Mgullo> Looked into get Surflan for inducing tetraploidy

<SharonMcA> watch for ladybug pupae.  They don't actually harm the
leaves so I leave them alone.  Would rather encourage them to live in
iris beds!

<danab> he's waiting on me to finish weeding Roger

<Mgullo> couldn't get any

<Patrick> Elsie, the lady from the violet society here suggests
completely replacing the soil with fresh new soil, getting most of the
dirt off the roots with WARM water. 

<SharonMcA> Patrick, the birds & lizards thought my first few releases
of ladybugs was a buffet put on for their benefit
<SharonMcA> I had to release enough to establish a self-sustaining
colony over a fairly widespread area before they were completely
effective.

<Patrick> that can get expensive here Sharon

<SharonMcA> I tracked expenses, and spent about the same on ladybugs the
first year as I had been spending on pesticides
<SharonMcA> The second year, I spent much less.  Then many years of no
expense at all because they've been self-sustaining.
<SharonMcA> If you're in a densely populated area, with neighbors who
spray, the colony would have problems, though.

Embryo Culture

<Mgullo> have you done any embryo culture Sharon?

<SharonMcA> no embryo culture, because enhanced germination has worked
well and I just haven't felt I needed to go the extra mile.

<Mgullo> I have a couple of possible inter species crosses that I am
considering it for

<SharonMcA> according to the old-timers, embryo culture gave them much
better germination but also had a higher loss rate.

<Mgullo> if I feel I can do it correctly
<Mgullo> that's a concern

<SharonMcA> for wide crosses, I used to do the peel & chip bit.  Not
sure my eyes are up to it now.
<SharonMcA> the depth of the slice is critical.  too shallow and the
wound heals over, too deep and you damage the growth point.
<SharonMcA> the room for error is about the thickness of a piece of
paper.

<Mgullo> wondering if they will need a nutrient growth med.

<SharonMcA> for embyro culture, agar.

<Mgullo> that's what I'm wondering

<SharonMcA> for the peel-and-chip process I use perlite or paper towels
just like I do for the unchipped seeds.

<Elsie> Where do you get Agar Sharon?

<SharonMcA> I haven't used the agar, but apparently it's very popular
with orchid growers so would try an orchid supply house.

<Elsie> Sounds like a good idea Sharon

<Mgullo> I have a science supply site that sell agar culture dishes
Elsie

<SharonMcA> just have to watch the chipped seeds very closely and plant
each one as soon as the leaf differentiates from the root.  leave the
tip of the leaf above the soil & add more as necessary.

Weeds & Wildlife

<Mgullo> How about weeding?

<SharonMcA> have trained the rabbits to do that

<RogerD> I've trained Rick to do that too

<SharonMcA> actually, I have to credit the cats & dogs with much of the
rabbit-training.

<Mgullo> I've trained myself not to look when the weeds get too high
<Mgullo> sort of like sheep herding Sharon?

<jijones> Sharon I remember all your tales about cats, dogs and cats
from way back

<SharonMcA> yes.  The St. Bernard started it when the cottontails were
nibbling at the lawn.
<jijones> and rabbits

<SharonMcA> When a 200-lb dog claims a pet, ya sorta let him have his
way.

<jijones> LOL

<Mgullo> how do the rabbits feel about it?

<SharonMcA> jackrabbits haven't proved trainable, but the cottontails
are now very tame
<SharonMcA> When that dog had his stroke, the cottontails would come in
the yard to keep him company

<RogerD> rabbits were a terror in AZ

<Gerry> Jackrabbits are "only" hares, as I remember

<SharonMcA> they do like grass & tender weeds and quickly learn to leave
the iris alone.
<SharonMcA> Jackrabbits will eat even yucca, though!

<RogerD> we had to rabbit fence our AZ gardens

<Mgullo> I have some voles I have trained to eat some of my iris every
winter so I don't have so many to take care of

<SharonMcA> started out with rabbit-proof fence, but the St. Bernard
mashed the mesh down in a few places to let his buddies in.  Then taught
them about gates. 

<RogerD> we only had 15 lb dogs, so we didn't have that problem

<SharonMcA> I've been accused of singing to my iris, but actually I'm
just working with the wildlife. 
<SharonMcA> they are a lot less skittish if they always know where you
are
<SharonMcA> less-skittish = faster-learning

<Mgullo> I was out in the yard one night and I heard some rustling in
the bushes and saw a skunk

<SharonMcA> It's really fun to see a mama cottontail bring a baby or two
into the iris garden for the first time.

<Mgullo> decided to talk to it so as not to have it get too close and
then be surprised

<RogerD> the few rabbits we have here don't bother the garden like those
terrors in AZ did

<SharonMcA> shows baby what's good to eat and watches for the first
slip.

<Mgullo> rabbits around here don't bother the irises either

<RogerD> our resident hawks keep the rabbit pop down

<SharonMcA> one bite of an iris  [which apparently aren't tasty anyway]
and I clap my hands loudly to startle the offender.

<Mgullo> plenty of dandelions and other natives they prefer

<SharonMcA> if mama stands her ground, often it takes only one lesson. 
<SharonMcA> tender leaves are good.  people are guardians, but they do
sometimes say 'NO!'
<SharonMcA> rabbits even eat very small tumbleweeds.  They're tender
until they get about an inch high.

<Mgullo> One of the reasons I garden is to have the animals around

<SharonMcA> Would MUCH rather let the rabbits eat them than have to pull
the bigger ones.
<SharonMcA> This has become something of a wildlife refuge.

<Mgullo> work together that's the way

<SharonMcA> although roadrunners are now rare.  probably because there
are so many more houses now.

<RogerD> it used to be fun watching our little dogs "cactus" a road
runner
<RogerD> they had to "cactus" them because they couldn't "tree" them